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    BACKCOUNTRY NEWS AND FORUMS

    Welcome to your source for the latest news, conditions, and insights on backcountry skiing and adventuring. Explore reports, gear reviews, safety tips, and more to help you make the most of your time in the wild.

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    • Thomas Beakbane
      2018-02-22 09:12:40

      Adventurer

      Hi, please help resolve a heated discussion I was having with a back country partner about the best route through an open glade, like the one in the image.  It was recently in Kootenay Pass and we were not sure about snow stability, but suspected deep persistent layers of instability. One of us advocated going along the top perimeter of the glade so we would not get buried if there was a slide.  The other said that was more likely to trigger a slide and advocated for going along the bottom where it is slightly flatter with trees one could duck into.
      Which is best? Stay high or go low?
      Thanks!
      Kootenay Pass

    • admin
      2018-02-22 13:50:13

      That's a great question that others may benefit from knowing the answer to so I am going to put this out to our Facebook audience as well. (I also added the image to your post so that people can see what you are talking about).
    • Thomas Beakbane
      2018-02-22 13:56:20

      THANKS!
    • Douglas
      2018-02-22 17:55:17

      Hi Thomas,

      That's a complex question with many possible factors involved and since you state that it's not even the actual slope in the image, it makes it even harder. But I'll try to help you out with the bit I've learned over the years:

      1. You mentioned PWL's. I think it may be good to clarify that those PWL's you're referring to were in fact very serious instabilities with major consequences. One thing I've learned (the hard way) is to never trust surface hoar instabilities, even after they've appeared to tighten up. It's not like any other weak layer, can't stress that enough. For the most part and to generalize, the dragons of the weak layers in the Columbia Mountains are early season rain crusts (think: November crust, etc.), storm shears and surface hoar. Of course there's more but keeping it simple here, those are the main ones IMO. Usually, with appropriate time given, the rain crust issue will settle and not be an issue (not always though but usually) until spring when it once again can become a serious issue. Storm shears are overall, easily managed. We just give them a bit of time to settle & bond and usually, all is good in Kansas. As already mentioned, never fully trust surface hoar! It's the one PWL that catches even the pro's by surprise.

      1. Regarding traveling more along the top or bottom, again this is pretty tough to summarize simply but a lot can depend on what type of weak layer you may be concerned about. Since the PWL's you're referring to are surface hoar layers, a common mistake is that people often think that they are less likely to trigger from the bottom of a slope. Although that's probably true for most potential weak layers, surface hoar is a unique beast. It is OFTEN triggered from the bottom of a slope. A friend and myself once triggered a Class 3.5 very far from the actual slope, thing rolled through both sides of us, continued to valley bottom and buried the Connaught uptrack. We were super lucky as we were on a small piece of slightly higher ground, that saved us. Thought we were gonners fer sure. Another time, we were causing every slope in a huge valley to release from 1/4 to 1/5km away while walking in the flat valley bottom.

      1. As far as trees offering protection: sure, sometimes but sometimes not at all. Especially when historic avalanches are releasing and ripping brand new avy paths through 300+ year old forest. Lots of that happened in the most recent cycle. Using the image that you posted, I'd say we're looking at some fairly complex terrain there. No easy way up that thing, regardless of what tactic is used, you'd still have to put yourself in a fairly exposed position. Also, that's like prime terrain for avalanches during such cycles (surface hoar), lots of folks think the trees will offer protection. Fact is, terrain as shown in the image is probably some of the most frightening terrain during times like that.

      Sorry if I didn't answer your question as you were asking, kinda hard piecing together exactly what you were asking about as well as having just a photo to go by. Also, there's way more to this stuff than I've mentioned but years of snowpack/terrain observations just can't be summed up without writing a book about it.

      One last thing I'll mention is, during times like that, using the terrain appropriate to the conditions is a really good idea!! You asked: Which is best? Stay high or go low? Considering that you guys were obviously concerned about the instabilities there, likely the best advice I could offer is: Neither, scenarios like that call for good judgment, a good time to keep it mellow, live another day, drink anutha beer, that kinda thing!!

      Thanks for posting this, it's good to see people wanting to learn.

      P.S. I'm not an expert so some of the stuff that I've said could be B.S. ;)

    • Thomas Beakbane
      2018-02-23 14:36:05

      Hi Douglas - thanks that is interesting and helpful! You might not be an "expert" but you sound wise enough.

      Just to clarify the overall conditions on the days we ventured out. Avalanche Canada rated the conditions "moderate" below the tree line and the early season hoar had been stabilized with early February rain and warmth that had subsequently frozen solid. This was covered by 10 - 30 cm of windblown powder with lots of spatial variability.  There was no slumping or sloughing and a number of skiers had tracked over exposed/steeper slopes with no triggering. 

      So the question is not about absolute safety but relative peace of mind. My inclination is to stay above danger zones (excluding venturing onto cornices). Hypothetically speaking I would feel safer triggering a slide from above than seeing one coming toward me - trees or no trees.

      Any other votes for high or low?  

       
    • 2018-03-01 20:54:30

      I am going to copy this question as this questions and the answers can be helpful for guide. Thanks

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